Take from the rich….

…. and give to the poor.

Obama’s plan

I see Obama is walking the walk and talking the talk with respect to taking on the lobbyists and the rich and powerful. Not only is he doing that but he has a plan too, and one that he is prepared to fight for.

In short, the plan is to take from the rich and give to the poor. Now, there is a concept! Needless to say, the Republicans (Conservatives) are aghast, crying, because this goes against everything they believe in i.e. they believe and practice the philosophy of taking from the poor and giving to the rich. What jokers… the tears of a clown.

If you read the article above you will see his plan makes sense. Taking from those who have too much and distributing it to those that don’t, makes sense! Some would call it communist, but you have to look deeper and you will see it actually is not, in that it closes loop holes and tax breaks against those who don’t need it, and don’t deserve it, and creates true competition as well, by forcing companies to bid and compete, rather than the current system of cronyism, which only just drives up the price of everything. Read the article and you will see what I mean.

Happy days will soon be here again. After decades of GREED by the Reganites and Bushites, finally, a breath of fresh air… and a piece of the pie.

I think the thing I like the best about Obama is that he is not afraid to reinvent the wheel and shake up the status quo (thats something we need here). Reminds me of the sixties. Flower power anyone?


Editors note
: It has been pointed out to me, my comment with respect to ‘decades of greed by the Reganites and Bushites’, should also include the Clintonites too. Fair enough.

 

Imagine a flock of pigeons in a corn field. Imagine that ninety-nine of them, instead of pecking the corn they need and using it as they need it, start to collect all they can into one big heap. Imagine that they do not leave much corn for themselves, but save this big heap of corn on behalf of the vilest and worst in their flock. Imagine that they all sit in a circle and watch this one pigeon, who squanders and wastes this wealth. And then imagine that they rush at a weak pigeon who is the most hungry among them who darest to take one grain from the heap without permission, and they punish him.
If you can imagine this, then you can understand the day-to-day behaviour of mankind.
– William Paley

from John Prince
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18 Responses to Take from the rich….

  1. Jose says:

    John,
    There is no doubt that the need to rein in the US Congress bandits (senators, house of reps, lobbyists and bureaucrats) who have learned to live off the public trough is essential. I hope that Obama can succeed. But to blame all of the mess on Reganites and Bushites is wrong. The Clintonites were at the trough too and have become VERY wealthy, as have many of the Congressmen through their reckless spending habits–payoffs from lobbyists, etc. Most of them forgot that they went to Washington to work for the people, and not line their pockets, and cling to power–the prime objective.

    What Obama is doing with his Stimulus Plan and new budget is, in one fell swoop moving the USA from its present failed model to a total Socialistic model; there will be no stop in between. The sheople have been prepped for this over the past few years. A lot of the Wall Street Banditry was planned, and not all by just the Banksters and Fraudsters. As the Govt hands out more and more goodies without any work having to be done, people are lining up at the trough for the freebies — where is the personal responsibility that built the Nation?

    Now anyone with a few dollars, earned and saved by a frugal lifestyle for retirement, is bad or a crook. Never mind that many others spent money they did not earn or have in order to gain instant gratification, and want to be bailed out. What an easier way than to blame all of the “rich”, many who have worked hard for their money. To take their money through taxation or worse and to redistribute it to the “poor” is nonsense.

    The battle cry in the USA is “to each according to their need, from each according to their ability” –where have we heard that before? A Greater Depression, that will make the last one look pale, will be the result of the new Obama plan to reconstruct the USA. The Producers will sit back and say to heck with it, and the Users will rely more and more on the handouts from the Govt. Shades of the book Atlas Shrugged. This is exactly what Obama and the well heeled and wealth protected Democrats want. Don’t be surprised if the same happens here in Canada as Harpo returned from his visit to the USA as the “Son of Obama” and parroted the words of Obama’s right hand man –it’s a shame to let a good crisis go to waste.

  2. John Prince says:

    Again, Welcome to my blog Jose! It is good to pick up where we left off before on Dean’s Blog.

    Now, to the business at hand.

    Ancient Rome and Washington are the same. What happened back then repeats itself here. Different names and different times only. Oligarchies, Politicians, Legions, Plebeians and Slaves. The only difference today being that the masses are now ‘debt slaves’ and our new masters are the banks and credit card companies that own most people’s souls.

    With the above in mind, I hear your pain and fear, and your sense of betrayal… ‘They lied to me’ in working hard and obeying the rules… now they want to give it all away to slackers’… I don’t think that is what Obama is all about. To revitalize a business you have to invest in it. The same holds true to a nation and its people. After years of banditry, looting and neglect the country needs to reinvest in itself again, and in its people. It needs to reinvest in our communities, schools, hospitals, industries, infrastructure, etc…. and most importantly, in its people.

    It always amazes me how people such as yourself think that years of excess, greed and neglect under the despotism of Bush and company is OK, but reinvesting in the people is not. It’s Socialism! Ooooh scary!!

    For your information, when Regan was President, the average CEO made 42 times what an ordinary worker made. In 2007, with Bush at the helm, it was 262 times. During this whole period, people’s wages were practically frozen and standards of living were eroded. The rich got richer and the poor got poorer. That is what Republicanism (Conservatism) gave us. In this regard, it is a known fact that there are enough resources at the present time on this planet to look after all the needs of all the people on planet earth. There is a direct correlation to why hundreds of millions of people die each year from starvation, want and neglect. That correlation is GREED.

    In my mind, socialism is a necessary condition of life, capitalism is a cancer. Besides, as someone recently stated “… we are all socialists now.” Despotism is what we had to fear, not socialism.

    I see from your post here and your posts on Dean’s blog that you want me to ‘get it’ with respect to ‘personal responsibility’. It seems ‘merit’ alone is deserving of support, to you. Everything else doesn’t count. You are disqualified if you don’t measure up. It doesn’t matter whether an accident, fate, or life in general dealt you a wrong hand. Or, maybe life these days is just moving a little to fast for you, and for most people. Meritocracy says these people should just drown. To take money from the rich by closing loop holes and tax breaks is sacrilegious and “To take their money through taxation or worse and to distribute it to the ‘poor’ is nonsense”, you say. I say, wealth will be distributed, either by politics, or by revolution. Since there are always more poor people than there are rich, I think you know who will win at the end of the day… just like the Ancient Romans found out.

  3. John Prince says:

    Jose,
    Let me just add that in a rich country like Canada, we have one in five (1 in 5) children going to bed hungry every night, and an indigenous population living for the most part in substandard conditions. Do we have a wealth distribution problem? Damn right we do!

  4. Jose says:

    John,
    It’s hard to argue that we should assure that every citizen should not go to bed hungry. I support assisting the elderly, the young and those unable to care for themselves, and yes using my tax dollars. No problem here. But I do not owe this to those that act irresponsibly, or are too lazy to work if able to do so, especially the young folk.

    Regarding drowning in credit card debt — no one asked them to “charge it” so they could have instant gratification, or to buy all those Boy Toys, and live the good life without thinking the piper had to be paid It’s not MY PROBLEM!!

    The road to American Socialism is now set by Obama. He is but a puppet for the Clintonites who make up most of his Cabinet, and who control Pelosi and Co. Bill Clinton is pulling the strings, but for Whom? Too bad, since Obama means well and has some good ideas. But let us not forget that the USA Democrats (Socialists and self-gratifyers) that are in power are actually far richer than the Republican Conservatives –check it out re Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedy, etc. Some of them have consciences, while most don’t. Witness Pelosi and her entourage flying off to Italy on a junket soon after signing their Pork Barrel Stimulus Plan that really will do little to help those in need. Queen Pelosi said “let them eat cake”.

    It was the Democrats (Barney Frank) that forced, yes forced, the USA banks to loan mortgage money to those that were unable to support a mortgage loan so that everyone could realize the American Dream to own a house. This is what started and allowed the graft, corruption and greed, and resulted in the Housing Crisis. Bush was too busy worrying about Iraq and terrorists.

    We have –so far– escaped this disaster in Canada, but its-a-coming. We’ll get to see what “muster” Harper and Co have as things unfold —- and much faster than anyone thinks possible.

    Yes John, the “rich” should be fairly taxed, but not to the point that the incentive to work is taken away. This will lead to only more tax evasion and revolt, and sooner or later the well will run dry for everyone. Then what? The mood that I recently witnessed in the USA is not good, and politics will not make the change –it’ll be the other way you mention above …. be prepared!!

    I cannot support Socialism similar to that now being implemented in the USA, and hope it and its effects stay south of the Border. To quote a well respected politician:

    “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.”

    …Margaret Thatcher
    ———————————————————-

    Several other quotes give my viewpoint:

    All About Wealth: You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.

    The government cannot give anything that it does not first take from someone.

    You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom.

    For what one person receives without working, another person must work without receiving.

    AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST —
    When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for ……………………. that my dear friend, is about the end of a nation.

    Author Unknown

    John, keep up the battle. You may have an opportunity to have supporters line up behind you sooner than you think.

    ——————————————————————————-

  5. John Prince says:

    It is good to see you have a heart Jose and that you believe in helping your fellow man.

    With respect to your first two comments on ‘irresponsibility’ and ‘credit card debt’.

    Not everybody that is in debt is irresponsible. I would suggest to you that most credit card debt is being carried by people who find themselves, for whatever reasons, forced to live on them. Not because they are necessarily irresponsible. Debt Slavery is a bitch! Economic indebtedness takes away people’s freedom and their sense of self worth. But hey, I understand that many people like you who are affluent don’t understand money traps. If you did, you and others would probably do something about the banks and credit card companies’ greedy usury business practices that ‘exploits the people’, and reduces them to being nothing more than ‘wage slaves’.

    It REALLY is your PROBLEM!! It is everybody’s problem and the sooner we own up to it the faster we will be able to deal with it. We are all our brother’s keeper and we REALLY are all in this thing together.

    Entrap the populace so that they feel there is no way out and you create the conditions for ‘The Revolt of the Masses’ (Jose Ortega y Gasset).

    Your comments on the Clintons, Democrats in general, Pelosi and Barney Frank, I cannot argue with, nor would I want to. Everything you say is true, or quite probably true.

    I Love your quotes and have included some of my own favourites:

     … today all we have is a long, groping slavery to principles which don’t work; can’t work; because some of Adam Smith’s axioms don’t even rise to the level of common sense.

     The United States is the wealthiest nation. But its 20.3 percent child poverty rate ranks worse than all European nations… the gap between the wealthiest and the poorest in America has become greater than at any time since Imperial plutocratic Rome.

     The argument that everyone is free to rise to the top is dismantled in most introductory sociology textbooks – although a student must usually wait until college to read this. But the trick of flaunting possibility to mask actual probability is not a casual device.

     Hearing that feelings of despair and inferiority are unequally distributed does not move conservatives. Under meritocracy, it is just deserts.

     … colossuses of indifference “of such power as to weaken government’s ability to control them,” so that “corporations now govern society perhaps more than governments do.”

     “For in a world where anything or anyone can be owned, manipulated, and exploited for profit, everything and everyone will eventually be.”

    Your comments, views and concerns on Socialism in America are way too soon to call. I really think you are putting the horse ahead of the cart, so to speak. These things for the most part take years to unravel, and we are still at the stage where the umbilical cord is still attached, for the most part.

    The following comment of yours is pretty ominous and scary stuff. In fact, it does not sound good at all! I hope you are wrong. “The mood that I recently witnessed in the USA is not good, and politics will not make the change –it’ll be the other way you mention above …. be prepared!!”

    As far as your last comment on people lining up behind me. I have this to say. As long as they are not ling up as a… firing squad. :-) I’m fine with that. :-)

    Seriously, something has to be done, and the sooner people wake up to that fact, the sooner we will be able to deal with it and, hopefully, turn things around.

    Thanks for your comments!

  6. Jose says:

    John, good comments. I don’t think that people even think that there is a problem — yet. Things Still look quite complacent during Wing Night.

    Re: credit cards — I’ve been there and done that. It didn’t take me long to figure out that if you can’t afford it, don’t buy it until you can. The credit card trap you mention is real, but in many cases it is more of a personal choice than a necessity. Do you really think just lowering the interest rate for credit cards would solve most of the spending problems?

    Having lived through the tough times in the Pass, I well remember the Govt food handout programs,and the mine whistle blowing “no work in the morning”. I also do my share of giving, paying forward and sleep well at night — but I am not my brother’s keeper.

    As for being affluent, that’s your take. Being a Conservative anti- Socialist Commie hater does not an affluent person make! I certainly won’t be that much poorer when the “rich” are taxed more heavily in the future as we dig ourselves out of this hole. I just don’t believe that Socialism is the way to go. There has to be a better way.

    Looking South to the USA, what Obama is now doing to the USA will go down as the Great Blunder. His move to implement all of his programs and wish-lists NOW during such dire economic times, will prove to be the catalyst that starts the Great American Revolution. This will begin this summer and will ramp up in the next 2 or so years.

    John, there is no umbilical cord to cut as Obama Socialism unfolds — the program is already well underway, aided by the power hungry Democratic Congress. The die has been cast, and the US will witness the greatest train wreck in history. Too many guns, too many hungry and homeless people, too many home foreclosures, not enough jobs AND too many financial and criminal wrongs that can’t or won’t be righted.

    The US Federales Govt knows this and has plans underway to handle the expected unrest — Black copters, urban warfare exercises, internal troop movements, arming up the police, and disarming the State National Guards to name a few. Notice how Obama denounced Bush’s “terrible” Patriot Act, but once elected he kept it in place to permit this ramping up? Also, you may want to check out the Agreement that Canadian and US Military Commands recently signed to come to the aid of each country in the event of civil unrest, terrorist attack, etc. Now, that is scary!!

    So John, as difficult as it may be for us Canadians to comprehend this, it is all happening as we speak. Let’s hope that such things stay South of the Border. Our Border with the US may become as busy as the US/Mexican border is now — hopefully minus the drugs, violence, kidnapping, human smuggling and serious gun play.

    As for your views on Socialism and Taxing the Rich, here are my views on the subject……..

    Taxation and Beer
    Simple economics about taxes

    Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.
    If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:
    The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
    The fifth would pay $1.
    The sixth would pay $3.
    The seventh would pay $7.
    The eighth would pay $12.
    The ninth would pay $18.
    The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
    So, that’s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.
    ‘Since you are all such good customers,’ he said, ”I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.’

    The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men – the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’ They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

    And so:

    The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
    The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
    The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
    The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
    The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
    The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

    Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

    ‘I only got a dollar out of the $20′, declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,’ but he got $10!’

    ‘Yeah, that’s right’, exclaimed the fifth man.
    ‘I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he gotten times more than I!’
    ”That’s true!!’ shouted the seventh man.
    ‘Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!’

    ‘Wait a minute,’ yelled the first four men in unison. ‘We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!’

    The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

    The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

    And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

    David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
    Professor of Economics, University of Georgia

    For those who understand, no explanation is needed
    For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible

  7. John Prince says:

    Jose,
    The point I was trying to make using credit cards as an example, is that for the last couple of decades while the rich have been getting richer, the working man/woman (if you are so fortunate these days) has basically seen his/her wages frozen and standard of living eroded. He/She has been getting the short end of the stick with respect to the economic pie, while at the same time being the object of greed from banks, credit card companies, utility companies, oil/gas companies, taxes (remember, we are the highest taxed nation in the G7), etc., etc., etc. There has been a litany of ‘predatory’ abuses perpetrated on ordinary people, while governments have ideally sat by and done nothing. In many cases, they have actually aided and abetted the perpetrators who exploit the people.

    Action needs to be taken to address the concerns people have of being abandoned to the sharks and their Taser tooting goons. “Democracy cannot be advancing if its parts are autocratic.” We have had over two decades of right-wing dominated social policy that has been a disaster on the working poor and less fortunate (see Michael B. Katz ‘The Price of Citizenship’), while at the same time seeing our middle class being systematically destroyed. Corruption abounds and white collar accountability is practically non-existent. The following quote pretty much sums up my thoughts on our present situation: “Corruption is merely a nasty word for the autumn of a people.”

    Obama’s plan on taxing those who make over $250,000/yr. while leaving those below that amount untouched sounds like a plan to me. My heart don’t bleed for those who will be taxed, as I’m sure these people’s hearts did not bleed for their less fortunate brothers and sisters when they were raking it in.

    If in fact there is an upcoming American Revolution it won’t be because of Obama (the vast majority of Americans LOVE Obama), it will be because of the past actions of his predecessors. Let’s not get confused here! Revolutions do not, in most cases, spring up over night. Widespread frustration with the socio-political situation is the usual cause, which is fueled over time. Now, if something were to happen to Obama that very likely would be the straw that broke the camel’s back. All hell would break loose for sure then. Let’s hope that doesn’t happen!

    I like your ‘Taxation and Beer’. :-) Very true too!

    But I will leave you with a final thought with respect to taxation. The best plan I have heard on this subject as far as fairness goes is the one proposed by Rawls:

    “… First Rawls insists that in addition to freedom and equality, there must be a prior value in democracy, justice. And that economic rationality and justice should forever be opposed.
    Rawls insists on a shift in focus. We should not judge a culture by how its topmost members are doing, but by how it treats its lowest. His solutions follow. First, this society should decide how low any member can go. That establishes minimum rights. It requires we identify the least-advantaged person in society, and draw focus to him. Next, the very top and the very bottom of society should be (and all intermediate levels should be) connected, as if by a loose linked chain. Then if the top rises, it pulls the bottom up with it. If the bottom moves up, that closes the gap toward equality. This arrangement does not prevent any upward rise; but it establishes consequences on movements at the top.”

  8. Michael says:

    Ok,
    I am 29 year old. I came from Russia in 1992. Worked since i was 13. Never complained or asked anyone for anything without working for it. Married. 1 kid. Planning to have 3 more.
    So let’s first do the math. I work as an financial planner. I make roughly about 400k a year.
    here is the breakdown.
    4 kids in private schools all the way up to college = 120k a year (i’ll keep college expenses out of it as to not make it worse)
    mortgage and housing expenses = 80k a year
    insurance expenses (life health) = 25k a year
    vacations = 10k a year
    all other = 30k a year
    total = 265k
    taxes = roughly about 120k a year
    HOW IS IT FAIR TO TAKE FROM ME AND GIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE??? I DIDN’T TAKE THIS MONEY FROM ANYONE. I EARNED IT!!! I VOTED FOR OBAMA BECAUSE I LIKE HIM FOR MANY REASONS AND I DON’T VOTE WITH MY WALLET, BUT THE GENERAL MOVEMENT THAT I SEE NOW DISTURBS ME. MY RESPONSIBILITY LIES FIRST WITH MY FAMILY. I WORK FOR MY FAMILY! NOT FOR A FAMILY NEXT DOOR, BUT FOR MY FAMILY… IF THE FAMILY NEXT DOOR WANTS A BETTER LIFE, THEY SHOULD ONLY HAVE IT IF THEY EARN IT… IF THEY DO NOT EARN IT, THEY DON’T DESERVE IT. WHY SHOULD 95% OF POPULATION NOT SEE ANY INCOME TAX INCREASE AND I SHOULD? I HAVE GOALS AND DREAMS!!! THEY GET ME OUT OF BED EVERY MORNING. THEY MAKE ME WORK HARD. IN THOSE DREAMS I SEE MY KIDS!!! NOW IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CHARITY AND GIVING BACK, THEN I AM FINE, AS LONG AS I DECIDE TO WHOM THAT MONEY SHOULD GO TO. THEY SHOULD MAKE A MANDATORY TAX WITHHOLDING THAT WOULD GO INTO AN ACCOUNT CONTROLLED BY ME, with a mandatory annual disbursement, but i get to choose where it goes. ME! I left russia for a reason, and it is because America is the land of the free, it is the land of opportunity. and it makes sense that there is a price to pay, but somehow it seems to me more and more, that this price is set by people that do not wish to take full advantage of this opportunity and this freedom, and instead they sell it to those that do…

    they sell this opportunity to me and others like me. and when they see someone doing too good, they start renegotiating this price, arguing that somehow the spread between incomes is growing and that redistribution is in order… i don’t want to buy freedom, i earned it… if i am taxed more that only means that now my children may not get everyting that i want for them… some may say – “why should they? my don’t.” my answer is simple, i get up everyday, leave home, and bring back the bacon, and you don’t. that’s why my income will grow and yours won’t… the opportunity is there for everyone, but its there not here. u have to go and get it, and you may have to walk a long time before you find it…and you may not find it at all, this is just a chance you have to be willing to take, i did. i was only able to do all that i did, because i knew that if i don’t – I WILL NOT HAVE IT…. THERE IS NO SAFETY NET. I WORK TO PROVIDE FOR MY FAMILY. I LOVE CHARITY, BUT WHEN I GET TO DECIDE WHERE THE MONEY GOES… MY LIFESTYLE DOESNT GET BETTER BECAUSE I PAY MORE IN TAXES, IT GET WORSE, BECAUSE I CAN AFFORD LESS. AND ITS NO ONES BUSINESS WHAT I SHOULD AND SHOULDN’T HAVE! I AM NOT IN DAMN RUSSIA! I WANT TO WORK, PROVIDE SERVICES TO PEOPLE AND HAVE THEM PAY ME FOR IT! Then i want to pay my equal share of taxes and move on! IF TAXES ARE A PRICE FOR FREEDOM AND OPPORTUNITY, THEN EVERYONE SHOULD CHIP IN EQUALY… Yes, i am talking about the flat tax. Its fair. All who are really poor, do not have to pay, but they may not spend money and then ask me to pay! Everyone who is not really poor (<45k) should pay a flat tax of somewhere between 15-20%. Now that's fair! We all pay the same price, since all have same freedoms and rights!!!

  9. John Prince says:

    Michael, your life history and successes are astonishing. Congratulations! But you must remember, you are the exception rather than the rule. For every one like you who reaches the top there are millions who live in squalor, want and neglect. Because the truth is… the trick of flaunting possibility to mask actual probability is not a casual device. In fact,

    Poor people of all races now have little chance of ever making it up to the middle class – for a complex of reasons including economic: the loss of jobs as capitalism goes global; technological: the sudden demands of computer skills at work; and attitude: Americans are really unsure of they want to provide equality of opportunity, because they believe a market economy thrives better on inequality.

    Middle-class Americans, who believe in meritocracy, and who cling to myths of self-reliance and freedom, find it difficult to accept the idea of these “poverty traps”- middle class people are always pointing to an ancestor of theirs a century ago who worked their way up from the slums to success – but those were times when education was not a requisite. With today’s technology a poor education really is a suffocating disability.

    A flat tax has its advantages and apparently works quite well in Hong Kong, although I do recall an argument that the rich come out ahead with this system at the expense of the poor.

    In my mind, I still think that Rawl’s proposal (see my comment above yours) is best and by far more equitable and just.

    Thanks for your comment.

  10. MICHAEL says:

    I understand your point as realization of certain facts about the overall condition of the society. I understand what may be seen as inequality. But here is where I think you missed my point and therefore let me restate it.

    What is inequality? Why is it wrong? Can there ever be right? All men created equal? Correct, at birth! From there billions of people are no longer equal. How can we instill equality and who is the judge of that? The real equality is communism, so how can we achieve real equality without communism. Under communism, there is no individual, there is a society. And who ever doesn’t want to play the part, well, that’s what the gulags are for. My father had me read many books on the subject, to know what my country used to be about.

    If we support individualism, we promote individual success, as this is the only way success can be measured. The way to measure success of community is a 5-year plan of production, as they had in Soviet Union. Which one do we want?

    Communism failed as power of individual’s mind cannot be contained, without constant threat of violence.

    Now here is the question I was looking to have answered.

    WHY, if i work hard and make more money than someone else who works less and makes less, am i supposed to pay even more money to support the system shared by everyone equally? How is that fair? I have to pay for a lot of things that others get for free, and I also have to pay for others to get those things for free? How is that fair? How is that fair to me? Or is fairness relative? The argument for a flat or sales tax systems, is that we all chip in equally, what we earn is what we earn. What i earn shouldn’t be of concern to my neighbor, i earned it, i pay my equal share of tax to support the government to regulate the country, the infrastructure, and the military to protect my way of life. The rest of my money I need to spend on healthcare, education, and leisure for me and my family. I understand that others may not have it, they may not have been “fortunate” or whatever people like to say, but why is it my responsibility to dedicate minutes, hours, days, months, years of my labor of my short life to be forcefully rededicated to compensate others, without my input.

    What is equitable? What is just?

  11. John Prince says:

    Michael, Talking about fairness. How is it fair that you are given a traffic ticket that costs you 1 hour of your wages, whereas that same ticket costs the person working minimum wage a week’s wages. How is that fair? How is it fair that you work 40 hours shuffling papers and not creating any real wealth, whereas another person who works just as hard as you (40 hours) creating wealth (e.g. a cabinet maker, brick layer, etc.) earns only 1/10th what you make. How is that fair. It is not!

    The bottom line is that the system stinks; it reeks inequality and in fact, thrives on it.

    Your argument that what you earn should be yours to keep, regardless of the fact that what you earn is ‘obscene’ in comparison to what others earn, seems to be lost on you. If the shoe was on the other foot, I think you would think differently. In fact, I think you should start to think differently, because the ranks of the dispossessed, disenfranchised and desperate are growing… Resentment and hostility boil in the underclass.

    Capitalism and consumerism is a cancer that is eating away at people and their souls. We are becoming less human.

    Both Capitalism and Marxism have original sin: they are both based on the concept that the fundamental needs of man are exclusively material.

    The best example that I have found that explains society’s current dilemma and that I believe will answer many of your questions is an essay titled GREED, a copy of which can be found on my site at: http://www.johnprince.ca/greed-1.pdf

  12. Michael says:

    Here is how I look at what is fair.

    Would you compare a doctor’s compensation to a bricklayer’s comp? Should they make the same money?
    I charge my clients fees that they are willing to pay. Simple.
    Bricklayer charges his clients fees that they are willing to pay. Simple.
    People are willing to pay me much more money then they are to the bricklayer. Simple.
    If bricklayer feels it is unfair, should he try to charge higher fees? Will it work?
    Or should i charge as much as the bricklayer? How to restore the “fairness”?

  13. Michael says:

    The should was on the other foot. Also, I make very little comparing with others. Obscene is 1.5-10mm. What I make barely lets me save for retirement, after education, healthcare, housing, and vacation expenses. Everything is relative.

  14. John Prince says:

    Michael,
    What is a doctor but a ‘glorified mechanic’ who is the epitome of GREED. Society has lost its way. At one time nurses, teachers, policemen, firemen, etc. who live off the public tit, did what they do because for the most part they were altruistic. Not these days, today it is all about the money.

    Anyways, read the GREED essay I gave you above and I think it will open your eyes. At least, I hope so?

  15. michael says:

    I read it. Somehow, I don’t see any proposals for the correct way. If what is happenning now is wrong, then what would be right. I am still in the office working, while everyone else went home. I work through lunch, and longer hours then anyone else in the entire firm. I have no salary, and what i make is all fees that my clients pay me, SO, should i work a little longer, and when i get my check, give few thousand dollars to the people that sit out the lunch in the lunchroom and go home at the bell? would that be more fair, just because they have set salaries and consistently ignore all incentive-based opportunities in front of them? What is wrong with wanting more money if i am not robbing anyone? You are not giving me an answer… What is the right way the society is supposed to live…?

  16. John Prince says:

    Michael, Don’t come to me for answers, I’m not God. All I know is what I know based on a life-time of experience, some of which has opened my eyes to injustices and inequalities in our society and system. I don’t advocate or promote anything except that things are broken and only getting worse, so obviously things have to change. Patching things up won’t work, as we have seen that only leads to them breaking down again.

    No, what is needed is an overhauling of the system, and a steering away from ‘Mammon’.

    Your personal demons with being ‘hard-pressed’ earning $400k a year, somehow does not register with me, knowing as I do how insignificant it is in the greater scheme of things, especially as it relates to other peoples ‘real suffering’.

    I can tell you there is more of ‘value’ in this world, than money. One of the biggest problems society today faces is having lost the ability, for the most part (because of modern living), to think meditatively, rather than calculative only. Get in touch with yourself and everything else will come together… at least that is what I think and try to practice.

  17. Anonymous says:

    I agree with Michael.
    John how are you going to know who is rich and who is poor.This shows you discriminate against rich.There are people who work very hard and very long hours to have what they desire. They deserve it. Then there are YOUR so called poor people who are perfectly healthy but prefer not to work because the government owes them. There are young people who brag that we are on social assistance.
    The doctors studied hard for years and paid for their education. They worked hard to be rich. They could have been on drugs, drinking and partying if they knew you as a mayor will take money from rich and give it to them. My question to you is how are you going to find out who is rich?
    I know there are some very rich people who live in tiny little houses, dress poorly but have big bank balances. There are people who live in big houses, dress well but after paying taxes and all their bills they break even with their income.
    What about a young person who studies hard, goes to university and is blessed for very hard work due to his honesty in whatever he does and becomes rich? and the other young fellow who swore at teachers, bullied good students, got in trouble with police and ends up a poor meek senior ?
    Yes I know not every poor person is at such fault but how have you planned on finding out that which rich person should be stripped of his wealth and which poor is deserving to give it to?

  18. John Prince says:

    Anon @8:32
    You are asking me to regurgitate everything I have already said above. If you read my comments above you will see that I have already answered all your questions. But to summarize by way of example, I think the difficulty you are having is with your interpretation of rich and mine. The Goldman Sachs boys who were behind the near financial collapse of our system and that resulted in obscene rewards for the perpetrators, some of whom made millions while others made tens of millions, while some made hundreds of millions, and a few even made billions is my idea of the rich who exploit the system leaving you and me the bill. Paper shufflers who create no wealth but land up becoming wealthy while the multitudes live in poverty and do without. The rich in my mind, are not those who work for a living and become successful, whether they be a bricklayer or a professional. My flock of pigeons story in the body of this post, says it all. Read it.

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